The Anti-Bond

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Re: The Anti-Bond

Post by Harvey Wallbanger »

zillionairepoet wrote:I'd like to focus on one point, and would like your opinions:

The changing of Bond from a navy commander to army.
IMO, (in my previous post) this is a huge dealbreaker for me. But does it bother others as much?
Bond has to be NAVY
The Navy is a big part of him.
In CR the Vespa said he is exSAS and Bond says nothing?
perfect time to show how little she knows.

I didn't like the mysterious benefactor BS either.

In short yes it's a dealbreaker
no Commander Bond = No James Bond 007
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Post by Jack Wade »

Oh my.

So the character of Bond has gone to hell because the writers didn't include a retort to Vesper (not "Vespa," read the novel please) saying he was in the SAS. Well actually, she says MI6 looks for guys that are "former SAS types" or something. She's not necessarily saying Bond was in the SAS, but rather possibly just saying what types of recruits MI6 goes after. Even if she was labelling Bond as someone previously in the SAS, I don't think Bond would get offended and correct someone over it.

Actually your whole argument is moot because you're both wrong about him being in the Navy. Read his bio on the official site.

He's still Commander Bond. Upon reading his dossier on the official website, the opening paragraph reads...
Commander James Bond is a Senior Operational Officer stationed at MI6 HQ, London. Per request, the following is a summation of James Bond's history to date:
It also states that he got his education in the Royal Navy at Brittania Royal Naval College, earned his year of Sea Service, worked on the HMS Exeter and HMS Turbulent, volunteered for the Special Boat Service, among other naval activities before his training to become an MI6 agent.

I really have no idea where you guys got the impression that he is no longer a Commander and now served in the Army rather than the Navy.

Touche fellas.
Last edited by Jack Wade on Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Commander 0077 »

Well, I apologize if Bond is still a naval commander. Question: is it a rumor that the title sequence includes Bond's file showing "SAS"?

I've just Googled a description of the Main Title:
quote
photos from Bond's CV, including his stint in the SAS, intercut with a printing press ....

Again, if this is not in the Titles, my apologies for starting a rumor.
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Post by Jedi007 »

Fair enough. But CR is as close as we've gotten to a Fleming Bond since the early Connery films.
I don’t know much of the original Fleming novels, so the statement could probably be true. Basing on the reviews and schools of thought about James Bond that I have read, Bond is supposed to be dark, which, as we have seen in CR, was done.

However, I will remind you, that it is not the Fleming novels that brought James Bond to these days and to the level of fame the character has; it was the movies. It was the films that has define James Bond into a character we know today and we are supposed to see.

But then, that doesn’t mean we have to discard Fleming’s original idea. In fact, the suave film side of Bond was present in Dalton’s portrayal, as well as Fleming’s dark version of his brainchild.

Brosnan wanted to do that, but all the producers could do was to sell Brosnan’s bloody charms. Brosnan could be gritty, as evident from other of his films.

Craig’s performance could probably be the closest to Fleming’s novel version, but Craig’s Bond also has its own revision of the character. He was arrogant, egoistic, and at some point, dumb.

Connery’s Bond wasn’t like that; in fact, I think Connery’s cool and charms is what made the producers to make Moore’s comedic. That was people’s entertainment, not this over dramatic, muscle-bounded energetic film.
I guess being in love with Pierce Brosnan's Bond full of senseless action, no plot, invisible cars, cringe-worthy delivery of one-liners, and bad acting then you would hate the new Bond.
Senseless action? What about the parkour chase scene that has endangered the lives of those construction workers? And those who made Bond drive an invisible car is those who wrote the script for CR. And they even need the help of Paul Haggis for that.

(Wade and Purvis=5%. Paul Haggis=93%. Haggis, Wade and Purvis=98%. That would probably explain that rating in Rotten Tomatoes.)
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Post by The Sweeney »

Jedi007 wrote:
Fair enough. But CR is as close as we've gotten to a Fleming Bond since the early Connery films.
I don’t know much of the original Fleming novels, so the statement could probably be true. Basing on the reviews and schools of thought about James Bond that I have read, Bond is supposed to be dark, which, as we have seen in CR, was done.

However, I will remind you, that it is not the Fleming novels that brought James Bond to these days and to the level of fame the character has; it was the movies. It was the films that has define James Bond into a character we know today and we are supposed to see.

But then, that doesn’t mean we have to discard Fleming’s original idea. In fact, the suave film side of Bond was present in Dalton’s portrayal, as well as Fleming’s dark version of his brainchild.

Brosnan wanted to do that, but all the producers could do was to sell Brosnan’s bloody charms. Brosnan could be gritty, as evident from other of his films.

Craig’s performance could probably be the closest to Fleming’s novel version, but Craig’s Bond also has its own revision of the character. He was arrogant, egoistic, and at some point, dumb.

Connery’s Bond wasn’t like that; in fact, I think Connery’s cool and charms is what made the producers to make Moore’s comedic. That was people’s entertainment, not this over dramatic, muscle-bounded energetic film.
I guess being in love with Pierce Brosnan's Bond full of senseless action, no plot, invisible cars, cringe-worthy delivery of one-liners, and bad acting then you would hate the new Bond.
Senseless action? What about the parkour chase scene that has endangered the lives of those construction workers? And those who made Bond drive an invisible car is those who wrote the script for CR. And they even need the help of Paul Haggis for that.

(Wade and Purvis=5%. Paul Haggis=93%. Haggis, Wade and Purvis=98%. That would probably explain that rating in Rotten Tomatoes.)
Bond makes mistakes in the novel - and this film is based on the novel. Hence why the character is slightly different.

Regarding P&W's influence - who cares? The film ended up great, so I couldn't care less if Rudyard Kipling wrote it.
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Post by Jack Wade »

Jedi007 wrote:
I guess being in love with Pierce Brosnan's Bond full of senseless action, no plot, invisible cars, cringe-worthy delivery of one-liners, and bad acting then you would hate the new Bond.
Senseless action? What about the parkour chase scene that has endangered the lives of those construction workers? And those who made Bond drive an invisible car is those who wrote the script for CR. And they even need the help of Paul Haggis for that.

(Wade and Purvis=5%. Paul Haggis=93%. Haggis, Wade and Purvis=98%. That would probably explain that rating in Rotten Tomatoes.)
Uhh... the parkour chase wasn't senseless. It was actually realistic. Much more realistic than invisible cars and helicopters with saw blades attached to them. Endangering the lives of the construction workers... you don't think Bond has endangered the lives of innocent bystanders in the past? I seem to remember Bond driving a car off the top of a hotel on to a street with pedestrians in TND.
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Post by Jedi007 »

Uhh... the parkour chase wasn't senseless. It was actually realistic. Much more realistic than invisible cars and helicopters with saw blades attached to them. Endangering the lives of the construction workers... you don't think Bond has endangered the lives of innocent bystanders in the past? I seem to remember Bond driving a car off the top of a hotel on to a street with pedestrians in TND.
The sense of being real depends on the setting of a story. As a character who we look up as a super-agent who can do everything we hope we can do but in reality cannot, those things we imagined become real. Helis with blades could become real; that is because in the story setting, King has his helis equipped with blades.

Plus putting high tech stuffs in those movies doesn't matter; those "super-things" is supposed to entertain us. Movies are supposed to entertain us, bring us into an escapist world. That's why James Bond became successful in the movies, not in the novels.

Even with those gadgets and things bordering on the fantastical was present in the films, a gritty and down to earth James Bond is still possible. That depends on how you expand the character. Brosnan wants his James Bond to be further defined, but unfortunately for him, the Brocollis doesn't not want him to do that.

You see, I also dislike the invisible car; I like the way the defilbrator was used in CR. It all depends on how each elements was expounded and used, character or gadgets alike.
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The reboot is a risky area, did Eon need to do it? NO. Did this confuse alot of people? YES.
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Post by Jack Wade »

I agree with what you're saying, but CR isn't a senseless action movie, thus, the parkour and Miami scenes aren't senseless. I really don't know how anyone can come to this conclusion. Maybe the parkour chase isn't entirely realistic seeing as it's going to be a very small chance thatone will have to chase a man who can do wht Foucan does, but I don't see how stopping a terrorist from blowing up an airplane is senseless. I just re-watched that sequence and much of it seemed pretty non-senseless to me.
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Post by Harvey Wallbanger »

Jack Wade wrote:Oh my.

So the character of Bond has gone to hell because the writers didn't include a retort to Vesper (not "Vespa," read the novel please) saying he was in the SAS.
Vespa is a joke ever since the ain’t it cool news review. You chose to be argumentative over a pun. Good call.

The official site, when did Fleming write that up? These would be the same people partnered with the production company?

Bond as written by Fleming was not in CR. The humor and comradeship with Felix –and Mathis- was genuine and big part of the story cut to the very core and psyche of Fleming’s Bond. Bond is Flemings alter ego that is why the Navy is so important to both 007 and his creator.

Moneypenny and Q were both in the book. -Q short for quartermaster- not too far off what the Q form the movies became.

Bond’s mission was blown because of Vespa, Mathis rides in to back Bond up and support the mission. Mathis was a great character to have him reduced to traitor is an insult.
Bond smiled broadly and would have greeted him with warmth if Mathis had not frowned and held up his free hand after closing the door.
“My dear friend You blown, blown, blown.”
Taken the wrong way the last statement could be misunderstood . ;)

This is the Bond we did not see in the movie. This is an very likable bloke and not at all the taciturn morose miserable little man from Nov 17th.



"Introducing James Bond: charming, sophisticated, handsome; chillingly ruthless and very deadly. This, the first of Fleming's tales of agent 007, finds Bond on a mission to neutralise a lethal, high-rolling Russian operative called simply 'Le Chiffre' - by ruining him at the baccarat table and forcing his Soviet spymasters to 'retire' him. It seems that lady luck is taken with James - Le Chiffre has hit a losing streak. But some people just refuse to play by the rules, and Bond's attraction to a beautiful female agent leads him to disaster and an unexpected saviour." Plot Summary from the current Penguin editions.
All of the Bonds were very deadly and had the chillingly ruthless. Bond was never supposed to be in Ruthless overdrive as Craig was.
Chillingly ruthless was the only aspect Craig did capture, but any of the bad guys from the last 20 movie had that as well and they were not Bond either.

The unexpected saviour from the book was not a big mystery. A Russian assassin doing his job who left bond alive by mistake because he had no orders to kill him. Told bond so to his face.
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Post by Goldeneye »

Much more realistic than invisible cars and helicopters with saw blades attached to them. Endangering the lives of the construction workers... you don't think Bond has endangered the lives of innocent bystanders in the past? I seem to remember Bond driving a car off the top of a hotel on to a street with pedestrians in TND.
Huge difference, Craig's pursuit was the cause of the danger to the pedestrians.
The bad guys pursuit of Bond was the cause in the TND.
The parkour chase was as mindless as it gets. the bulldozer, running trough a wall, catching a gun, bounding around like flea. Superman would be the character you first think of not James Bond..
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Post by The Sweeney »

Goldeneye wrote:
Much more realistic than invisible cars and helicopters with saw blades attached to them. Endangering the lives of the construction workers... you don't think Bond has endangered the lives of innocent bystanders in the past? I seem to remember Bond driving a car off the top of a hotel on to a street with pedestrians in TND.
Huge difference, Craig's pursuit was the cause of the danger to the pedestrians.
The bad guys pursuit of Bond was the cause in the TND.
The parkour chase was as mindless as it gets. the bulldozer, running trough a wall, catching a gun, bounding around like flea. Superman would be the character you first think of not James Bond..
In hindesight you are probably right.

Have to say, it didn't put me off the scene when I watched it in the cinema though, nor did I immediately think of how he was dangering poor pedestrians when I first saw this. I was more impressed by the action sequence itself and the stunts being performed.
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Post by The Sweeney »

Harvey Wallbanger wrote: This is the Bond we did not see in the movie. This is an very likable bloke and not at all the taciturn morose miserable little man from Nov 17th.

All of the Bonds were very deadly and had the chillingly ruthless. Bond was never supposed to be in Ruthless overdrive as Craig was.
Chillingly ruthless was the only aspect Craig did capture, but any of the bad guys from the last 20 movie had that as well and they were not Bond either.
I think EON did use artist licence when developing Bond's character in CR. Some of it is Fleming, but some of it is made-up to reboot the franchise.

True, Craig is chillingly ruthless throughout this film. However, the moments which I liked this aspect of the character being played by Craig were -

1. The smile on his face seeing the bomber blow himself up after being arrested.

2. The smile when he sees the men on the CCTV camera examining their smashed car.

3. His icy cold look when stabbing the man at the airport.

4. The way he charges into the room and kicks the bomber during the opening action sequence.

To me, these were defining moments which set Craig apart from the actors before who had played Bond. With Brosnan there was always a nod to the previous actors. You knew when it was a `Moore moment' or a `Connery moment'.

Whereas with Craig, it throws everything out and redefines the character. I never thought that would be a good thing until seeing CR. I now realise it was the biggest, bravest and smartest gamble EON made to keep the franchise alive.
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Post by James »

I didn't understand why Craig ordered his fellow Agent to holster his weapon (I think he said "We want him alive" or something) and then chased him in a bulldozer (!) and eventually shot him after blowing up an Embassy. Sure, Casino Royale wasn't Moonraker but it had some Brozzeresque nonsense along the way.
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Post by Commander 0077 »

Jedi007 wrote:
Fair enough. But CR is as close as we've gotten to a Fleming Bond since the early Connery films.
I don’t know much of the original Fleming novels, so the statement could probably be true. Basing on the reviews and schools of thought about James Bond that I have read, Bond is supposed to be dark, which, as we have seen in CR, was done.

However, I will remind you, that it is not the Fleming novels that brought James Bond to these days and to the level of fame the character has; it was the movies. It was the films that has define James Bond into a character we know today and we are supposed to see.

But then, that doesn’t mean we have to discard Fleming’s original idea. In fact, the suave film side of Bond was present in Dalton’s portrayal, as well as Fleming’s dark version of his brainchild.

Brosnan wanted to do that, but all the producers could do was to sell Brosnan’s bloody charms. Brosnan could be gritty, as evident from other of his films.

Craig’s performance could probably be the closest to Fleming’s novel version, but Craig’s Bond also has its own revision of the character. He was arrogant, egoistic, and at some point, dumb.

Connery’s Bond wasn’t like that; in fact, I think Connery’s cool and charms is what made the producers to make Moore’s comedic. That was people’s entertainment, not this over dramatic, muscle-bounded energetic film.
I guess being in love with Pierce Brosnan's Bond full of senseless action, no plot, invisible cars, cringe-worthy delivery of one-liners, and bad acting then you would hate the new Bond.
Senseless action? What about the parkour chase scene that has endangered the lives of those construction workers? And those who made Bond drive an invisible car is those who wrote the script for CR. And they even need the help of Paul Haggis for that.

(Wade and Purvis=5%. Paul Haggis=93%. Haggis, Wade and Purvis=98%. That would probably explain that rating in Rotten Tomatoes.)
I have read all the books, and a few of the non-Fleming Bond books. Christopher Wood's TSWLM, for one (it had more 'Flemingisms' than the other non-Fleming Bond authors, btw). Despite his profession, Bond in the novels comes across as quite a nice guy. CR is the 'darkest' of all, but even here he is not the icy cold terminator. And after CR, 007's personality is very funny; his wit is aimed at both himself and his world.
As the novels progress, Bond becomes more and more likeable, not less.

and, PPK: not beating a dead horse, but the fact of the movie CR's Bond being from SAS does point in the direction of 'anything goes'.
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Re: The Anti-Bond

Post by BondFan007 »

zillionairepoet wrote:I'd like to focus on one point, and would like your opinions:

The changing of Bond from a navy commander to army.
IMO, (in my previous post) this is a huge dealbreaker for me. But does it bother others as much?
He's still a Royal Navy Commander, I don't know where you got the idea he wasn't? Check the website.
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Post by BondFan007 »

zillionairepoet wrote:Well, I apologize if Bond is still a naval commander. Question: is it a rumor that the title sequence includes Bond's file showing "SAS"?

I've just Googled a description of the Main Title:
quote
photos from Bond's CV, including his stint in the SAS, intercut with a printing press ....

Again, if this is not in the Titles, my apologies for starting a rumor.
It's not in the titles. This was from a review of an early script that had the line "Ex-SAS", which this site picked up and made a massive thing off.
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Post by BondFan007 »

Harvey Wallbanger wrote:Q short for quartermaster- not too far off what the Q form the movies became.
In the books there were two characters that became Q in the films. Major Boothroyd, the armour, he changed Bond's gun in Dr. No, he was very different that the Q of the films, and the quartermaster in From Russia with Love, he had a very small part, he showed the suitcase, described what it did and left. Whilst close to the representations in their respective films, after that, when changed from Boothroyd to Q the character changed drastically to that described by Fleming.
was a great character to have him reduced to traitor is an insult.
Le Chiffre says he's a traitor, it's never confirmed and at the end it's strongly suggested Le Chiffre was lying and Mathis was indeed Bond's ally.
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Post by Harvey Wallbanger »

BondFan007 wrote:
Harvey Wallbanger wrote:[
Either way he was not the character Ian Fleming intended -the early Bond22 leaks have it a continuation of the story with Mathis as a traitor. :?
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