What if Sean Connery played Bond until 1985?

[The Saint 007]

I enjoy Live and Let Die for being a nice mix of the lighter Moore with serious touches. It has some classic scenes such as the 'torture' in Mr Big's big table, as Bond's pinkie is nearly clipped. The music in that scene is tops. Moore gets to say "The names ...." "Names are for tombstones!" He was starting to sag in FYEO, but overall a respectful effort in all departments. "Get your clothes on .... and ... I'll buy you an ice cream..." a nice jibe on his age. Craig 'bonds' features an unlikeable hero. How can that be? As far back as Casablanca it was understood that the hero should have charm. How can audiences root for a bore? I understand that some see Craig as unboring, but really ....! To quote Noel Coward, "This tastes like armpits!" (referring to breakfast Fleming had made at Goldeneye).

I too miss the days of the debonair hero, and I think there's far too many of these macho/hardcore type heroes in cinema nowadays. I understand those types of heroes have their place, but I just think that James Bond should be the suave and sophisticated type of hero he was portrayed in the classics. Kind of like the knight in shining armour. But some will disagree and say that sort of thing is too dated now.

I suppose you could say that Kamal Kahn ironically predicted the future of the series with his quote, "Mr. Bond is indeed a very rare breed... soon to be made extinct."

[Count_Lippe]

On the other hand some of the stuff in the older Bond films could be seen as a bit offensive today actually.

Connery almost rapes Pussy galore in the barn in GF, and Pat in the shower in TB.

Both Connery, Lazenby and Moore also slapped women in the face.

And although movie heroes today are not the classical man in suit, they're not unsympathetic in appearance.

Matt Damon's Jason Bourne is basically a nice guy for example.

I think Craig is very odd in todays movies.

[commander0077again]

On the other hand some of the stuff in the older Bond films could be seen as a bit offensive today actually.

Connery almost rapes Pussy galore in the barn in GF, and Pat in the shower in TB.

Both Connery, Lazenby and Moore also slapped women in the face.

And although movie heroes today are not the classical man in suit, they're not unsympathetic in appearance.

Matt Damon's Jason Bourne is basically a nice guy for example.

I think Craig is very odd in todays movies.

And don't forget the sexist comments in DAF .... but it's mostly escapist stuff, and I for one don't take Bond's sexist attitude solemnly. He usually has his tongue in his cheek, so he can get away with it. Example, DAF "I'd like you to get something off your chest...." and proceeds to choke the bikini girl with her top. Of course, the proceeding scenes has a fez-wearer saying, "Hit me" in the casino, and Bond, wearing a white suit, obliges. So the two silly scenes preceeding the girl being choked gives the context. But a certain dour-faced 'hero' can't get away with it.

Re Jason Bourne basic nice guy. That's nice, too. But he's not Bond. And the new "Bond" borrows the action-style of Bourne, and forgets what makes "our James" unique. Btw, I like the Transporter guy, what's his face. Balding, has some funnies, but he's not Bond.

[Emilio Largo]

On the other hand some of the stuff in the older Bond films could be seen as a bit offensive today actually.

Connery almost rapes Pussy galore in the barn in GF, and Pat in the shower in TB.

Even though Connery is my favorite Bond, he's rather crude and carnal in his EON Bond films (but he does get to be most charming with Domino in Never Say Never Again and his seduction of Patricia Fearing in same is superior to the steam room rape in TB). Those two scenes you mentioned really get me angry. Bond is supposed to be charming to the ladies and brutal to the bad guys. Connery's Bond appears to be quite the callous misogynist, especially in GF and TB and these scenes ruin my enjoyment of these two Bond films.

However, if Sean Connery had played Bond until 1985 it would have put the kibosh on both Lazenby and Moore's impersonation of Bond and that is a most pleasing thought to me, eh. Sean Connery as James Bond in On Her Majesty's Secret Service =
'Nuff said!

[Count_Lippe]

[Omega]

Attitudes Chang over the year I guess


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[Dr. No]

Re: attitudes changing in Dr. No he tell Quarrel to fetch his shoes, today nobody would do that. I think when Roger Moore did the commentary for his movies (2005-06) he had a small revelations about the characters, especially LALD, he was shocked by Bond actions towards Jane Seymour's Solitaire.

[The Sweeney]

Re: attitudes changing in Dr. No he tell Quarrel to fetch his shoes, today nobody would do that. I think when Roger Moore did the commentary for his movies (2005-06) he had a small revelations about the characters, especially LALD, he was shocked by Bond actions towards Jane Seymour's Solitaire.

If you look back at the novels, Fleming was racist and sexist in equal doses. I remember in one of the novels Bond has thoughts about women drivers, saying having too many women in a car at once was dangerous, as they won't look at the road properly.

Hilarious now when reading that, and amazing even back then that Fleming got away with writing such stuff. It reminded me of the Harry Enfield public information films.

[bjamesobrad]

In the novel FRWL Karim Bay tells Bond that all women want to be raped.... Now thats hard core stuff

[The Sweeney]

In the novel FRWL Karim Bay tells Bond that all women want to be raped.... Now thats hard core stuff

Yes it was, and he also wrote `semi-raped' from what I remember in another novel.

[Kristatos]

To what extent was he simply mirroring the prevalent attitudes at the time, though?

[Mazer Rackham]

From Casino Royale

Code: Select all

He found her companionship easy and unexacting. There was something enigmatic about her which was a constant stimulus. She gave little of her real personality away and he felt that however long they were together there would always be a private room inside her which he could never invade. She was thoughtful and full of consideration without being slavish and without compromising her arrogant spirit. And now he knew that she was profoundly, excitingly sensual, but that the conquest of her body, because of the central privacy in her, would each time have the sweet tang of rape.

Fleming was a product of his times, his tastes/appetites were not what we would consider mainstream today. It's possible the voice he found for his stories is only what he though was required of him to find a market.
Still I Consider the Skyfall sex workers seduction unBondian. Each and every Novel Bond fell in love, LALD he was in love with Solitaire in a way he had never know before, most novels he is putting himself as well as the mission in danger to attempt to save the damsel in distress.

[Count_Lippe]

I certainly don't think you could say Fleming's attitudes was a mirror of the times.

Look for example at old movies from the 40s and 50s and how romantic they were.

Fleming's spy novels on the other hand were rather hard-boiled and even a bit pornographic at times.

I don't think the "rapes" in GF and TB are to be taken entirely serious though, they're to show off the virile Mr Bond and how he gets every woman he wants. I was only joking a little with my poster.

The various comments in the Bond books about rape are more questionable I think.

[James]

Fleming's spy novels on the other hand were rather hard-boiled

I think Fleming was a fan of Raymond Chandler's Phillip Marlowe novels if I remember correctly. I'm sure Fleming and Chandler met in real life.

It's just fair to say the Fleming books have very dated elements and he probably wasn't the most PC person in the world even at the time he was writing. FRWL has some jarring moments. "Homosexuals" are deemed a "security risk" and Bond joking about putting Moneypenny over his knee for a spanking. I think in Dr No the employees are referred to as "Chigroes". There are many strange little moments like this for present day readers.

[Count_Lippe]

I think Fleming was even influenced by Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer novels, which are known to be very hard-boiled.

And it's of course meaningless to compare Fleming to the levels of political correctness we have today.

But his attitudes about women and sex must have been pretty misogynist even in those days.

I don't remember exactly but there's something he writes in Casino Royale also, about women only having the right to exist because they are meant as pleasure to men in men's free time.

[bjamesobrad]

From Casino Royale

Code: Select all

He found her companionship easy and unexacting. There was something enigmatic about her which was a constant stimulus. She gave little of her real personality away and he felt that however long they were together there would always be a private room inside her which he could never invade. She was thoughtful and full of consideration without being slavish and without compromising her arrogant spirit. And now he knew that she was profoundly, excitingly sensual, but that the conquest of her body, because of the central privacy in her, would each time have the sweet tang of rape.

Still I Consider the Skyfall sex workers seduction unBondian. Each and every Novel Bond fell in love, LALD he was in love with Solitaire in a way he had never know before, most novels he is putting himself as well as the mission in danger to attempt to save the damsel in distress.

Thats not entirely true... In Thunderball Bond is very clear his feelings for Domino are strictly sexual and he is NOT in love. The relationship is a fling in Bonds eyes. I can't remember the exact wording but its something like that.

[James]

I think Fleming was even influenced by Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer novels, which are known to be very hard-boiled.

And it's of course meaningless to compare Fleming to the levels of political correctness we have today.

But his attitudes about women and sex must have been pretty misogynist even in those days.

I don't remember exactly but there's something he writes in Casino Royale also, about women only having the right to exist because they are meant as pleasure to men in men's free time.

I've never read the Spillane books but that's interesting that they might have been an influence. I've read Chandler's books and I think (lowers voice) they are better than Fleming's Bond novels. I like that world weary ironic sense of humour he gives Marlowe. The phrase "Flemingesque" that is bandied around a lot is very selective. There is a lot of stuff in the Fleming books that you really wouldn't want in a film today.

[Kristatos]

I think the measure of his attitudes was how controversial they were at the time. I remember hearing the usual complaints about the levels of sex and violence in the novels, but very little protest about the racism, sexism and homophobia, which makes me think that they would barely have raised an eyebrow in the 1950s. This was, after all, an age in which homosexuality was illegal and "nigger brown" was a standard paint colour.

[Capt. Sir Dominic Flandry]

The raciness of Fleming's fiction helped make them popular; Fleming and Chandler wrote pulp fiction but wrote great fiction that is very well regarded now.

Bjamesobrad
Thats not entirely true... In Thunderball Bond is very clear his feelings for Domino are strictly sexual and he is NOT in love. The relationship is a fling in Bonds eyes. I can't remember the exact wording but its something like that.

Bond put Domino back on the boat with the fake camera.geiger counter even though it was dangerous and thought "nice girl but never mind!"

[Dr. No]

I have a theory that James Bond 007 is someone I'd like personally, a average guy who does an unusual job. Ian Fleming I'd like to like but have a feeling he wouldn't be someone to easily get along with.