The BJMDDS General Discussion Thread......

[Capt. Sir Dominic Flandry]

There is another view to this argument though!

As DC received a lot of hostility to his appointment as Bond.............its just possible from a DCINB point of view, that when DC retires from the role, the next candidate for Bond could also not meet with approval here.

If Bond 23 is a success, and any possible subsequent Bond films starring Craig in the lead role, that EON might replace him with another similar actor!!

EA

You've just put your finger on the doomsday scenario. If the first Bond that Broccoli picked herself was Daniel Craig who is she going to dig up next?

All bets are off if this man is her idea of Bond.

[katied]

Sweeney, sweeping generalizations are very common in the Bond fandom.On both sides.

[The Sweeney]

Sweeney, sweeping generalizations are very common in the Bond fandom.On both sides.

I realise that, we all do it. During Brozza's reign, I was pretty much going through what all the folk here are going through with Craig right now. I hated the current Bond films EON were making in the 90's, so was very frustrated by it. So yes, I can relate to you guys on here. I've been there.

However, I never made the assumption that every fan at the time who loved Brozza as Bond was not a true Bond fan for liking him, despite my own personal feelings at the time towards Brozza. If you look at the majority of posters on MI6 and Cbn, I'd say they were mostly Bond fans on there, and not Craig fans.

Like I said yesterday, I don't honestly think Craig had a huge amount of hardcore fans before he became Bond. There wasn't a massive Craig fan movement out there, all worshipping Layer Cake, Tomb Raider, Enduring Love, Sylvia, etc. and now religiously following him as Bond too.

Any new fans that Craig has picked up as Bond (probably quite young I would guess, brought up on Bourne), and who have no appreciation of the old Bond classics are probably in the MINORITY, and not the MAJORITY. This is true even on the other Bond forums out there. In fact, I'm actually raking my brains to think who on MI6 I would class as a Craig fan first and foremost, and not a Bond fan. To tell you the truth, I can't actually think of ANYONE.

I don't know where Ale has got this crazy idea from....

[katied]

I think there is a Craig hardcore(but-hello sweeping generalization ) at a guess, a fair amount of them are women.

[Alessandra]

However, I never made the assumption that every fan at the time who loved Brozza as Bond was not a true Bond fan for liking him, despite my own personal feelings at the time towards Brozza. If you look at the majority of posters on MI6 and Cbn, I'd say they were mostly Bond fans on there, and not Craig fans.

I wouldn't say that at all. I would say the majority of CBn posters are fans of whoever is the Bond of the moment, since CBn is completely guided by EON and it eliminates all opposition to whatever is the trend of the Bond movies in that moment (and yes I've experimented that in person and I'm certainly not the only one). The few poor dissidents who resist are treated like pariahs. And on MI6... what? All I've read about MI6 right now (and I don't mean here but mainly on other boards, and I mean general boards where there are plenty of Craig fans) is it being a place for absolute Craig fanboys, and a lot of very young ones at that. I read it a few times back in the day and found it so out of place and over the top with Craig praising that I never opened it again.

And I've NEVER said that ALL fans of Craig aren't true Bond fans. Once again, and for the last time, I'll repeat what I already said and quoted from my first post: I said that ANYONE who is first and foremost a fan of an actor is not a true Bond fan. AND it just so happens that the majority of Craig fans are Craig fans, not Bond fans. Seen it on every single one of the general boards, so yeah I think it's true. That doesn't mean that ALL Craig fans aren't Bond fans. It means there's a majority who aren't. The rest are.

You think it's the other way round and it's your right to think so, but to say "where I got my crazy idea from" because you disagree with it is quite out of place. I got my idea from the same places you get it from. Clearly we don't have the same opinion on the things we read. There's nothing wrong with it, just don't make it personal the way you're making it. I'm not crazy, thanks. I just don't happen to share your view. Like many others on here, it seems. That's all there is to it. You read things and give an interpretation, I give a complete opposite interpretation to them clearly. How you see CBn and MI6 and how I or others instead see them proves the point.

[Mazer Rackham]

Sweeney, sweeping generalizations are very common in the Bond fandom.On both sides.

I realise that, we all do it. During Brozza's reign, I was pretty much going through what all the folk here are going through with Craig right now. I hated the current Bond films EON were making in the 90's, so was very frustrated by it. So yes, I can relate to you guys on here. I've been there.

However, I never made the assumption that every fan at the time who loved Brozza as Bond was not a true Bond fan for liking him, despite my own personal feelings at the time towards Brozza. If you look at the majority of posters on MI6 and Cbn, I'd say they were mostly Bond fans on there, and not Craig fans.

Like I said yesterday, I don't honestly think Craig had a huge amount of hardcore fans before he became Bond. There wasn't a massive Craig fan movement out there, all worshipping Layer Cake, Tomb Raider, Enduring Love, Sylvia, etc. and now religiously following him as Bond too.

Any new fans that Craig has picked up as Bond (probably quite young I would guess, brought up on Bourne), and who have no appreciation of the old Bond classics are probably in the MINORITY, and not the MAJORITY. This is true even on the other Bond forums out there. In fact, I'm actually raking my brains to think who on MI6 I would class as a Craig fan first and foremost, and not a Bond fan. To tell you the truth, I can't actually think of ANYONE.

I don't know where Ale has got this crazy idea from....

Craig didn't have any fans before he was installed as Bond and then the studio machine got behind him not forgetting the impact of Sony's viral machine.

One difference is when Brozza was making a Bond movie they were still Bond movies, the production elements were not up to him although Craig has a lot more input. Problem with Craig is he immediately divided the fan base and audience, now arguments tend to center around "minorities" and "majorities". Part of this is the fault of this site becuase in their early days they called on a "majority" of people to protest (a fools gambit), so the studio response was in kind and vitriol picked up by the fanboy looking to be in favor with the series producer was carried on to assault any nonbelievers, also labeling them untrue to the purer faith because they prefer Bond to act and look like Bond continuing in the spirit of the series as established by Cubby and Fleming.

Willy I recall you being just as much a prat -the Craig Juggernaut can't be stop. Sound Familiar? -Bond 22 is going to be bigger than CR!!! OMG!

Craig's days are numbered and we are down to the hours being counted. Craig was a dangerous casting because he still causes descent and is not unanimously cheered nor accepted. Plenty of polling data shows people not thinking of him as BOND, but not that they hate or despise him as some here would want him to remembered. He didn't bring anything to CR that wasn't already in the script and the one project he was involved with brought stuff nobody wanted. However read the vitriol from the supposed Bond fans who singularly cheer him as franchise savior and finally making Bond good. This is a problem since it ultimately weakens the Bond Brand and the nut jobs running the franchise started it and pushed it forward by criticizing their history and quality of their products/movies. They took a big risk and didn't mind burning bridges to get their way even if it is only for a temporary gain. I am not so worried about Bond 23 being produced as Bond 24 and beyond, which are in great jeopardy. Whoever is the next Bond they have to get him locked in and make 2 or 3 movies quickly to stabilize the brand once more. That would seem a great difficulty for the Heckle and Jeckle running EON now.

Although Bond 23 has it own hurdles, finding funding, a finished script and getting schedules cleared, also Craig lost 10m ticket buyers and millions more home video buyers with the last outing. The state of Bond in the US has never been weaker. The health of Bond is rather like that of MGM, although MGM's problems are obvious.

[bjmdds]

I do enjoy reading your descriptive comments on 'Craig' ..BJ

Anyone would think he was some sort of 'Shrek' creature!

EA

Facts EA, nothing but the facts, as Sherlock said.

[katied]

To be fair, I think people have agreed to disagree I respect Nash's opinions, but... I think he's wrong.


And yes, things have gotten pretty heated between the pro-Craigs and anti-'s at times(believe me, I know!).I don't think the recent announcement about Bond 23 has caused any hostility though.

[Captain Nash]

Katied you have been alot easier to get along with in recent times, and I'd like to think that I have too.
I'd also like to see this trend continue.
As The Sweeney has rightfully said in a previous post, with the news of Bond 23 arriving, surely a little ribbing on my part had to be expected. My God, the dcinb Achilles heel is not hard to find is it?

We can of course discuss the next Bond aka Bond #7, and I'd still put money on Cavill at this time. Though NO-ONE can absolutely say that they know when Craig will vacate the role.
As for Ales comments on Craig Bond fans not being true Bond fans. Well Sweenster has answered that perfectly.
Personally I'd say it's utter rubbish.
I've been a Bond fan for as long as I can remember. Octopussy is my favourite Bond film, I believe all the Bond films (including DAD and QOS) have at least something to enjoy in them, and ALL of the films are entertaining. I also believe that ALL of the actors have brought something to the role.
To use such a statement is a cheap swipe at other Bond fans. No wonder the stories from the press are more and more fabrication, when this is the kind of journalistic talent we have.

[The Sweeney]

Willy I recall you being just as much a prat -the Craig Juggernaut can't be stop. Sound Familiar? -Bond 22 is going to be bigger than CR!!! OMG!

There is a flip side to that coin. I recall the anti mob being prats too - CR will be Craig's only outing then he will be finished.......Craig will be finished after QoS......Craig will be DEFINITELY finished now after Bond 23, etc. etc.

[The Sweeney]

I said that ANYONE who is first and foremost a fan of an actor is not a true Bond fan. AND it just so happens that the majority of Craig fans are Craig fans, not Bond fans. Seen it on every single one of the general boards, so yeah I think it's true.

Do you really know the members of MI6 that well to make such sweeping statements? Most of the regular members I know on there actually don't rate CR or QoS that highly these days. Brozza bashing is obviously the main trend (quite rightly so) , but I don't think Craig bashing is that far behind right now.

I think your comments are not qualified or justified. If you were a regular member on MI6, then you would have realised this isn't the case at all.

As for the fans of Craig on MI6, the majority I know who rate him, were Bond fans looooong before Craig came on the scene. I think your prejudice towards him is clouding your judgement.

[English Agent]

Mazer Rackham 'said'

"Although Bond 23 has it own hurdles, finding funding, a finished script and getting schedules cleared, also Craig lost 10m ticket buyers and millions more home video buyers with the last outing. The state of Bond in the US has never been weaker. The health of Bond is rather like that of MGM, although MGM's problems are obvious"

oops 'my cut and paste' went wrong above!

Yes, i agree that the health of Bond in the US is poor, but the relatively poor admissions for the last Bond adventure were due to 'QOS' being a not very good film, NOT as has been stated here due to the lead actor in the main role. In fact Craig was one of the few to get any positive acknowledgement from the reviews.

EA
i've been away from this site for a year, but is it me, or do we seem to keep going over the same ground over and over again?

Hope we get some proper news on Bond 23 soon, so we can discuss other matters.

[Thunderpussy]

I agree English Agent, QOS wasn't all down to Craig (although if reports are to be believed,He does have far more input than anyother actor in the role ). Simply in my Opinion IT'S A BAD MOVIE, The reasons have been talked about since its release and I'm sure we'll be raking over the coals of it for years to come.From the miss matched 2nd unit and main Director,Diffrenent styles of editing and an awful script ( what little there was ).
But the same people who made all those same bad decisions then, are still there.So could make all the same or even diffrenent Bad decissions all over again. At the moment I don't have any good feelings from the stories coming out about Cast /Director etc. Now I do Hope I'm WRONG,and that we do get a more traditional but contemporary Bond Film with 23.
I think the problem with QOS was instead of an Evolution of the Charater of Bond, we were given a Revolution.TOO big a change Too soon,If it had of been done a little slower over perhaps three or four Films it might not of jarred as much.
Sill as always I'm keeping my fingers crossed,They'll get it right next time.

[Alessandra]

I said that ANYONE who is first and foremost a fan of an actor is not a true Bond fan. AND it just so happens that the majority of Craig fans are Craig fans, not Bond fans. Seen it on every single one of the general boards, so yeah I think it's true.

Do you really know the members of MI6 that well to make such sweeping statements? Most of the regular members I know on there actually don't rate CR or QoS that highly these days. Brozza bashing is obviously the main trend (quite rightly so) , but I don't think Craig bashing is that far behind right now.

I think your comments are not qualified or justified. If you were a regular member on MI6, then you would have realised this isn't the case at all.

As for the fans of Craig on MI6, the majority I know who rate him, were Bond fans looooong before Craig came on the scene. I think your prejudice towards him is clouding your judgement.

Likewise. I think your prejudice towards Craig and your prejudice towards Brosnan is clouding YOUR judgment. And with this I don't think it's worth discussing at all anymore. What you think isn't the ultimate truth. What I think isn't the ultimate truth. They are called opinions. Difference is while I respected yours and didn't call you crazy, you didn't respect mine and had to get personal and try and make it sound like my opinion is invalid (just because it doesn't coincide with yours). So it's got down to that now, and I'm not playing this game, the end.

By the way, the world doesn't begin and end at MI6. The other general boards combined have WAY more regular posters than MI6, so I'm not interested in what happens or doesn't happen right now at MI6 and that's not what the conversation is about. The fact YOUR perception of what happens on MI6 doesn't coincide with mine is completely irrelevant. I have plenty of other boards making my point so even if I thought Mi6 was a place filled with reasonable Craig fans who are Bond fans first and foremost (which I certainly don't think), it wouldn't make the slightest difference. All the other boards I regularly read make my point and form my opinion. I have read way more than enough back then on MI6 to form my opinion, and what others reported on it right now didn't improve it, but rather worsened my opinion. The fact those two threads you indicate are the main threads says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Nash I'd say you too need to learn some manners. Nobody's opinions are "RUBBISH" like you just called mine. You differ? Fine. But don't dare getting so insulting.

Craig's days are numbered and we are down to the hours being counted. Craig was a dangerous casting because he still causes descent and is not unanimously cheered nor accepted. Plenty of polling data shows people not thinking of him as BOND, but not that they hate or despise him as some here would want him to remembered. He didn't bring anything to CR that wasn't already in the script and the one project he was involved with brought stuff nobody wanted. However read the vitriol from the supposed Bond fans who singularly cheer him as franchise savior and finally making Bond good. This is a problem since it ultimately weakens the Bond Brand and the nut jobs running the franchise started it and pushed it forward by criticizing their history and quality of their products/movies. They took a big risk and didn't mind burning bridges to get their way even if it is only for a temporary gain. I am not so worried about Bond 23 being produced as Bond 24 and beyond, which are in great jeopardy. Whoever is the next Bond they have to get him locked in and make 2 or 3 movies quickly to stabilize the brand once more. That would seem a great difficulty for the Heckle and Jeckle running EON now.

Although Bond 23 has it own hurdles, finding funding, a finished script and getting schedules cleared, also Craig lost 10m ticket buyers and millions more home video buyers with the last outing. The state of Bond in the US has never been weaker. The health of Bond is rather like that of MGM, although MGM's problems are obvious.

Perfectly stated by all means.

[oscartheman]

Mazer Rackham 'said'

"Although Bond 23 has it own hurdles, finding funding, a finished script and getting schedules cleared, also Craig lost 10m ticket buyers and millions more home video buyers with the last outing. The state of Bond in the US has never been weaker. The health of Bond is rather like that of MGM, although MGM's problems are obvious"

oops 'my cut and paste' went wrong above!

Yes, i agree that the health of Bond in the US is poor, but the relatively poor admissions for the last Bond adventure were due to 'QOS' being a not very good film, NOT as has been stated here due to the lead actor in the main role. In fact Craig was one of the few to get any positive acknowledgement from the reviews.

EA
i've been away from this site for a year, but is it me, or do we seem to keep going over the same ground over and over again?

Hope we get some proper news on Bond 23 soon, so we can discuss other matters.

Bond talk never changes very much in the good times.Now it is a civil war among the fans and the debate is heated.Some jokers come here demanding debate shut down.Every so many weeks they stop by with some newly concocted excuse to demand we explain ourselves.In that way it does go in circles.Mostly the debates goes on here about all the facets of Bond above and beyond Craig.Craig deserves to get some of the blame for qos since he had a hand in making ti the way it was,his director,his touches to the script.When was the last time a review of lemon didn't take time to praise the actors in it as the lone redeeming factor?It is a touchy world if they criticize the wrong actor Spielberg blackballs them.

[Alessandra]

Mazer Rackham 'said'

"Although Bond 23 has it own hurdles, finding funding, a finished script and getting schedules cleared, also Craig lost 10m ticket buyers and millions more home video buyers with the last outing. The state of Bond in the US has never been weaker. The health of Bond is rather like that of MGM, although MGM's problems are obvious"

oops 'my cut and paste' went wrong above!

Yes, i agree that the health of Bond in the US is poor, but the relatively poor admissions for the last Bond adventure were due to 'QOS' being a not very good film, NOT as has been stated here due to the lead actor in the main role. In fact Craig was one of the few to get any positive acknowledgement from the reviews.

EA
i've been away from this site for a year, but is it me, or do we seem to keep going over the same ground over and over again?

Hope we get some proper news on Bond 23 soon, so we can discuss other matters.

Bond talk never changes very much in the good times.Now it is a civil war among the fans and the debate is heated.Some jokers come here demanding debate shut down.Every so many weeks they stop by with some newly concocted excuse to demand we explain ourselves.In that way it does go in circles.Mostly the debates goes on here about all the facets of Bond above and beyond Craig.Craig deserves to get some of the blame for qos since he had a hand in making ti the way it was,his director,his touches to the script.When was the last time a review of lemon didn't take time to praise the actors in it as the lone redeeming factor?It is a touchy world if they criticize the wrong actor Spielberg blackballs them.

The exchange here has been absolutely fine until of course useless trouble was stirred up. And we weren't going in circles, as you say we were having discussions about the various sides of Bond and on Bond #7 as well as Bond 23 as we pleased. Then of course the release date made people crawl out of the woodwork, and of course the too civil tolerance of certain type of posters here (and I mean people suggesting absurd ideas as Bond replacements or people clearly trying to just and only cause trouble "why do you even exist" types like you were saying) brings on pointless discussions. On the other hand, better to be civil rather than behave the way CBn does. The madness will go as soon as the whole release date drunkenness fades. And we'll get back to discussing as we please and having a few good laughs. Thankfully.

[English Agent]

Even though this is a DCINB forum, and i like Craig in the role (so far), i only comment only on this Bond site now, as most people here have some intelligent insights and thoughts about the Bond franchise, and i'am sure the DCINB posters here appreciate in some way the comments of the pro-craigers, otherwise the conversation would be a stalemate with everyone agreeing to each other, which is one reason why i don't post at MI6 or Commanderbond.net anymore. Plus some members here are very amusing characters.

EA

[katied]

Even though this is a DCINB forum, and i like Craig in the role (so far), i only comment only on this Bond site now, as most people here have some intelligent insights and thoughts about the Bond franchise, and i'am sure the DCINB posters here appreciate in some way the comments of the pro-craigers, otherwise the conversation would be a stalemate with everyone agreeing to each other, which is one reason why i don't post at MI6 or Commanderbond.net anymore. Plus some members here are very amusing characters.

EA

I don't mind a good debate once in a while(you should have seen me when I was a noob to being online, about 13 years ago. Oh man.I butted heads with quite a few people.In fact, it made some of what's happened here in the past look minor by comparison!)

[Alessandra]

EA I can absolutely understand why you would pick this forum to comment, it is a great place. I truly dislike second guessing just for the sake of it, but I certainly have no problem with a normal and healthy discussion, as long as it doesn't get too heated. I mean after all it is Bond we're talking about, not something that actually has any importance in life Sometimes there are people who appear and they have nothing to say other than getting confrontational or making absurd statements, and that's when problems arise. (have a look at Bond 23 forum and you'll see what I mean ). But other than that, I don't think things have been going round in circles here, at least not ever since I have read. No idea about the origins as I wasn't here LOL

BJ, how's that Mac treating you? We need you around here, and this is your thread after all. Bring in your hilarious Cr-egg wisdom

[The Sweeney]

By the way, the world doesn't begin and end at MI6. The other general boards combined have WAY more regular posters than MI6, so I'm not interested in what happens or doesn't happen right now at MI6 and that's not what the conversation is about. The fact YOUR perception of what happens on MI6 doesn't coincide with mine is completely irrelevant. I have plenty of other boards making my point so even if I thought Mi6 was a place filled with reasonable Craig fans who are Bond fans first and foremost (which I certainly don't think), it wouldn't make the slightest difference. All the other boards I regularly read make my point and form my opinion. I have read way more than enough back then on MI6 to form my opinion, and what others reported on it right now didn't improve it, but rather worsened my opinion. The fact those two threads you indicate are the main threads says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Either way, whether its MI6, CBn, AJB007 or wherever, we internet geeks, Bond nerds (yes I'm including myself in this) represent a small democratic compared to the general movie going audience. We on these forums make little difference to what the outcome will be for Bond films. What you have seen on Bond forums does not represent the majority of Craig fans in general.

If you look at QoS opening weekends in most countries, it was huge. The sales dropped off afterwards. Obviously audiences around the world were not put off first time round by Craig, otherwise they would have stayed away in droves on opening weekends. This was simply not the case. I'm putting the drop off in sales afterwards down to the fact that QoS sucked for most people, hence why it didn't do brilliantly overall. But the opening weekends tell you something about how audiences took to Craig in CR.

Anyway, I'm done with this particular debate. Sorry if me using the word `crazy' offended you. I meant what you were saying sounded crazy....not that you are crazy.